So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

Not on a macroeconomical scale, it isn't.

Devaluing professions through non-stop zero-effort resource uptake is not good for Eve.

Here's a thought: you do pay for electricity right? you could have invested an hour of effort to make far more than you made leaving your system on all day AFK mining and then saved on power.

Of course you're making money, I acknowledged that.

Devaluing professions through non-stop zero-effort resource uptake is not good for Eve.

That'd be fine..

People at keyboards have limits. Limits are actually good for economies. They reinforce minimum values, rather than allowing them to sag indefinitely.

When everyone can gather resources with zero effort those resources' value sufferes. As a result, the value of the profession as a whole suffers, too.

Only when resources are finite in availability will there be no difference between a miner ATK and a bot/AFK miner.

Thanks for the great question.

incorrect assumption #2; the computer is only on in order to play eve.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

Oh, come on, it doesn't have to be zero.

If the ice blocks you pull in are only worth 10 ISK, then making 300 ISK for a half hour of AFK mining isn't worthwhile, is it?

300 ISK could be attainable by running the same anomalies you mentioned only slightly (<1%) more efficiently due to lack of multitasking distractions.

The devaluation clearly does not have to be zero, though the threshold will be different for various players/bot farms.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

So should I take the time to read your blog, or should you take the time to read at least one of my posts or threads?

Because I'm not doing any carebearing. Sorry.

I am a null zealot part-time ganker, part-time bumper who genuinely believes that the risk I add to the game provides value-added content to successful miners for their benefit as well as my enjoyment.

ah i love you GCSE business students.

once your teacher has covered motivation theory, come back here and realise how amusing and incorrect you are.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

1. Physiological needs
The definition of physiological needs is quite obvious; they are the physical requirements for human survival. If these requirements are not met, the human body cannot function properly, and will ultimately fail. Physiological needs are thought to be the most important; they should be met first. Therefore, a human lacking food, love, esteem, or safety would consider the greatest of his/her needs to be food.

2. Safety needs
With their physical needs relatively satisfied, the individual's safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior. In the absence of physical safety GÇô due to war, natural disaster, family violence, childhood abuse, etc. GÇô people may (re-)experience post-traumatic stress disorder or transgenerational trauma. In the absence of economic safety GÇô due to economic crisis and lack of work opportunities GÇô these safety needs manifest themselves in ways such as a preference for job security, grievance procedures for protecting the individual from unilateral authority, savings accounts, insurance policies, reasonable disability accommodations, etc

3. Love and belonging
After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third level of human needs is interpersonal and involves feelings of belongingness. The need is especially strong in childhood and can override the need for safety as witnessed in children who cling to abusive parents. Deficiencies within this level of Maslow's hierarchy GÇô due to hospitalism, neglect, shunning, ostracism, etc. GÇô can impact individual's ability to form and maintain emotionally significant relationships in general, such as friendship, intimacy and family

4. Esteem
All humans have a need to feel respected; this includes the need to have self-esteem and self-respect. Esteem presents the typical human desire to be accepted and valued by others. People often engage in a profession or hobby to gain recognition.

5. Self-actualization
This level of need refers to what a person's full potential is and the realization of that potential. Maslow describes this level as the desire to accomplish everything that one can, to become the most that one can be.

Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

You really think all those subs won't change status if mining gets an "interestingness" buff? You really think they'll be excited?

Sometimes, Vaerah, I don't see what the points of your posts are.

I'm sorry what?

I play Eve to blow people up.

The size of my wallet isn't a factor.

Your mode of cogitation is practically foreign to me.

Further, the game with literally the worst mining also happens to literally have the most fun PVP, so there you go.

I'm trying to bring the rest of the game up to the caliber of the PVP as a service to those who know no different.

The real stupidity is that they are missing out on all the cool stuff in the game.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

This seems counter intuitive to some people - if you're making money, you're winning right? WRONG.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

But we all know that miners mine themselves into poverty, they've done it since the start of EVE. They complain that they don't make enough money and ask for more yield, which causes them to make either the same or often less than they did before. They then proceed to ask for more yield again

AFK takes stupid up to 11. AFK miners are collectively mining themselves into mediocrity because "I can make teh isk while watching Kaylee on Firefly" mentality.

They may be making accounting profits but the facts are they make zero or worse economic profits. Quite literally, you'd be better of doing any other activity than AFK mining.

But since AFK miners only understand a wallet blink, they will think they're gaming the system by making money afk. But in reality they're selling themselves as short as you possibly could.

So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

I think gankers used to say the same thing about "Buff Hulk" threads.

Am I wrong?

They probably wouldn't have had the chops for Eve then.

Honestly, good for them for knowing better.

They just could not understand all the hate being thrown around for an internet space ship game. Its not something one likes to experience after a 12 hour shift... They are eve material..i can say that i should have asked them not to visit the forum..

So let me get this straight.

You don't want to do things. Other people do.

In a game.

And you're upset because you can't ignore them...

...in the context of...

...the same exact game?

So your chief complaint is that certain people (you) don't want certain people (me) to play the game?

Or do I have you and me backward? Because I want miners to play the game. I even want them to succeed.

That was exactly one of the CCP points with those new exhumers. By making them a "click once every 40 mins" affair, bots become useless.

To see how important AFK mining has become, suffice to say that the AFK ices have totally tanked, while minerals (less AFK, roids deplete in few minutes) are rising. Both resources are in need at this time, both require similarly efficient setups so the only discriminator is the AFK-ness.

Hum, I make 300 mil/hour with my mining-accounts on Ice, while watching a movie. Ofcourse I have an eye on local, but that's hardly considered active gaming.

If I would do something else instead - I wouldn't be able to get such an income, just because I can't dualbox more than 2 accounts with efficiency.

So, I think ICE is totally worth it :D

Anyway, grinding missions or anoms/plexes is equally boring, so what's the deal with mining Ice "AFK"?